Actor Mark Odlum Uses Psychedelics to Successfully Quell Cluster Headaches
Today, we’re delighted to sit down with the multi-talented writer, actor, woodworker, and improv comedy showman, Mark Odlum.
Join us as we engage in a spirited discussion touching on everything from gripping ghost stories, to microdosing magic mushrooms, mastering the art of carpentry, to leading the charge on the very unknown, wildly mysterious, and unbearably painful cluster headaches.
We follow Mark all the way through his mischievous class clown years growing up on the East Coast, finally making it out west to LA where he married the love of his life and appeared in TV shows such as Adam Ruins Everything, Insecure, and Amy Poehler and Nick Offerman‘s Making It.
He stands over 6’2”, has broken almost every bone in his body, and has more than one potentially critically-acclaimed novel ready for bookshelves near you.
We’re proud and enthusiastic to introduce Mark Odlum. Please hit the play button at the top of the page and thank you for listening to today’s mind-opening episode.
In this Episode
[01:25] Jason begins by complimenting Mark Odlum for having a similar appearance to Paul Rudd. Mark tells us about growing up in West Hartford, Connecticut and the practical jokes he’d pull off during middle and high school.
[05:15] Mark and Jason find out they both studied marketing in college. Mark remembers his sports-playing and adrenaline-junkie days, and how he was always prone to accidents. Jason describes his worst sports injury.
[08:56] Mark recounts his personal survival story after suffering a bone-crunching injury skiing off-piste at 8,000 feet in Zermatt, Switzerland.
[12:29] Mark gives us a quick synopsis of the young adult novel he’s trying to get published. It’s based on the posttraumatic stress he dealt with after his leg injury that limited his physical activity.
[15:39] Jason is interested in what Boston was like for Mark. Mark recalls working construction gigs after hurting his leg, starting classes at Improv Asylum, and eventually making it to the Main Stage there and at ImprovBoston.
[20:46] Jason and Mark embark on a game of “Never Have I Ever.” We discover if they’ve been friendzoned, brought something illegal onto a flight, skipped showers, seen ghosts, and more.
[34:39] Mark lays out the meaning and concept behind his unreleased book, Cluster F*ck, after he developed cluster headaches following his surgery, and how LSD and psilocybin help ease the excruciating pains.
[44:38] Mark gives us details about Clusterbusters, an organization that has helped him cope with cluster headaches. Jason and Mark also share family stories and how their daughters are jokesters like they were.
[49:48] Jason asks Mark about his UCB and woodworking experiences. Mark reflects on how he strayed from improv and his time on the show Making It where he utilized his woodworking and background in acting.
[55:16] Mark updates us about his latest TV projects and how he found the secret to acting. He contemplates what he would have done differently when he auditioned for The Daily Show and his mindset for landing Adam Ruins Everything.
[57:28] Jason invites Mark to tell us about his Instagram and other ways we can connect with him. As they close today’s show, they decide to set up a day where Jason can try a preventive dose of a psychoactive medicine for cluster headaches.
Jason Hennessey: At first, when he walked in, I’m like, “Who invited Paul Rudd to be here?” Do you get that often?
Mark Odlum: I’ve gotten that a lot, actually a lot. When my wife and I first started dating, a lot of her girlfriends called me Paul Rudd and they didn’t know what my name was.
Well, he’s not Paul Rudd, he’s Mark Odlum, but that’s a good compliment because people are like trying to find Paul Rudd’s secret on how he stays so young. So, that’s a compliment to you.
I don’t know if I’ve got that part going for me yet. I think this pandemic is aging me in the wrong direction.
It’s aging everybody in the wrong direction.
Well, I appreciate you coming down here. Well, tell me a little bit more about what is it like to be Mark? First of all, where’d you grow up?
I grew up in New England. I grew up in Connecticut, in West Hartford, Connecticut. And then I went to school in Rhode Island, in Providence College. And then I went to Boston. That’s what you’re supposed to do if you go to school in New England, you move to New York or you move to Boston.
So, I moved to Boston and I’d lived there for about 6 years.
And what was that like? What kind of a child were you? I know you got comedy in your life now, but were you always like a little jokester during school or what?
I was always one of those, the class clown kind of jokester. I love making people laugh. So, I was always a little mischievous, getting in a lot of trouble, but the practical joke kind of humor.
Like when I got my diploma in high school, I went up on stage with a fake hand and shook the principal’s hand with a fake hand.
Are you serious? Oh my God.
He did not find that funny at all. It was a prop Carrot Top time kind of humor. My friends liked it, but he threatened to not give me the diploma, but worked out in the end. But I was always that. I would bring a lot of fake blood to school, those kinds of things.
I ran for student office to be vice president, and the only reason I ran to be vice president of the student council was so that I could give a speech. I didn’t really have any agenda or any political aspirations, it was just like, I want to get up in front of the whole school and make a fake funny-
Make a laugh.
Yeah, make a laugh.
Make a laugh.
So, I did. I did.
Nice. I was similar to you. I was a class clown. There’s some stories, like I would go to my friend’s house, my friend Billy, and I would steal the entire family’s toothbrushes, like just doing random things.
I made a photocopy of one of my friend’s faces and I kept it in my wallet at all times. So, whenever we would end up at a party, there’d be a picture of the family hanging up in their house, and we don’t even know these people, and I would take the picture down, no one is looking, and I’d put up my friend Rob’s face as the dad and I’d hang it back up.
Just doing funny stuff and just makin’ people laugh.
That’s what, I think, childhood is all about, trying to make people laugh.
My friend Dan and I in high school and middle school would just try to- If there was a very busy hallway with all the students, I would try to pretend I was running late to class and trip and drop all of my books and papers. And we’d have them extra papers, so they would fly everywhere just so I would fall in front of everyone. So, a lot of that kind of stuff.
Wow. Well, well it sounds like you had- At least you didn’t get expelled from the comedy and you had some good enough grades to go to college.
Yes, yes. My parents still made me. I still had to hit the books. I was not a great student, but I got by and I did my work.
Well, that’s key. I think there was, I don’t even know, like 1,100 kids in my school and I was like 890 or something
I was around there too.
I was having fun.
I was having fun.
Life was meant to be fun.
So, you went to college. What did you study in college?
Marketing and art. My mom was an elementary school and high school art teacher, so I loved art all growing up, so I wanted to paint.
I wanted to go to RISD, to go to art school, but my parents were swaying me to go to more liberal arts. They were like, “Because maybe you can get a degree to do something else along with art.” My mom’s like, “You can always do art.”
So, I decided to go more liberal arts, but with a minor in painting and I majored in marketing and advertising.
Well, you could always fall back on marketing.
Because you’re always marketing yourself.
I feel like any business you do, anything, even if acting or whatever, you’re marketing yourself.
I still remember things from college. I didn’t learn so much stuff in college, but I do remember learning quite a few marketing tricks.
I was the same. I studied Marketing at UNLV. I went to school. I was in the Air Force and I went to college at UNLV, and I was going to be a lawyer. And I’m like, “This lawyer stuff isn’t really for me.” And so, I fell back on marketing. So, it’s pretty fascinating.
So, while you were in college, you’re pretty tall. Did you play sports or what?
I did. I played basketball and baseball. Those were my two sports. I was very accident prone and I really wanted to play football, and my parents were like, “Not a good idea.”
I’ve broken almost every bone in my body from various sports. Along with being the class clown kind of guy, I was just a little bit of an adrenaline junkie. I always liked rock climbing, surfing, skiing, skateboarding, jumping off of cliffs and getting hurt. So, they’re like, “Football, no.”
But I did play basketball. I loved basketball and baseball. I almost played baseball in college, but then I knew I was not going to the pros and I was like, “I want to have fun in college instead of just playing baseball all the time.”
I got recruited by a couple of schools, but I thought I would just be on the bench. So, I was like, “I’m not going to play.” I knew I wasn’t going to be starting.
I, too, was like you, I was an athlete in school when I was, I don’t know, 7 years old. I thought I was going to be a professional baseball player. I was into wrestling, I played football. I was an active kid.
But believe it or not, my biggest injury was from a bowling accident.
Of course, because they’re always those types of things.
So random. I’m like 12 years old. And my family was really active in bowling, like I would be on bowling alleys on Wednesday nights with women smoking cigarettes. It was crazy. I’m playing video games. And so, I would bowl, and I got pretty good at bowling.
And then one time, I’ll never forget it. It was an empty lane, they were bowling in the league, I’m down at lane 12 or whatever.
And I step up there to the lane, and I’ve got my ball, and I guess somebody had spilled something earlier. I didn’t know that.
And so, I get up there and I go and I throw the ball. And as I throw the ball, I slip, and the ball comes down and smashes my finger, this 10-pound, 12-pound ball.
Oh boy. Yeah, those are fairly heavy.
Boom. I remember it just smashing my finger and then bouncing back up. I go and my finger just starts to get big, big, big.
And so, I go get my mom and we go into the bathroom. I also remember, it’s so much pressure. I go like this. And then just blood went all over the bathroom. And we go to the guy, and he is like, “Do you need a Band-Aid? What do you need?” But anyway, I still got a scar from that, from a bowling story. Go figure.
It’s always that, it’s always those.
You remember like an injury that comes to mind from playing sports or what?
I don’t even know where to begin on injuries.
You have too many of them?
I have so many from sports and from non-sports. I also have a lot of non-sport related injuries too, those kind of just, wrong place, wrong time.
But my worst one was skiing. I was back-country skiing in the Swiss Alps after college. My sister had gotten a job teaching Spanish at an outdoor adventure school in Switzerland because she could go and ski and hike.
I loved skiing at the time, and so I was like, “I’m going to come out and visit you.” So, I went out to go visit her. And I had a free place to stay in her dorm and I could ski.
How cool is that?
It was unbelievable. So, I’m in Zermatt, Switzerland. We’re halfway through the trip and she’s like, “I have to work and all my friends have to work, so you can ski by yourself today.” But she’s like, “Just stay the marked trails.”
But instead, I was being a little daredevil, I was skiing on the marked trails all day, and it was nice, decent snow. But I realized, if you go off piste just a little bit, it was like a foot of fresh powder.
So, I kept venturing off piste, out of bounds a little bit further and further throughout the day.
And are you a competitive skier? Are you good?
Yeah, I’ve been skiing my whole life.
So, I just want to put the reference there.
So, I am skiing now. I kept getting further and further backcountry, off piste.
And this is about 20 years ago. I didn’t have a cell phone, I didn’t have a GPS tracker or anything. I’m at about 8,000 feet. I’m going down a really steep trail, full speed-
By myself. And it’s about a foot deep of fresh powder. And all of a sudden, full speed, my right ski boot stops and my body keeps going. And the bone above my ski boot, right below my knee, my tibia, tibial plateau, cracks in half of splinters down a long way.
Oh my God.
And I tumble down 50 feet. And I’m just sitting there with my leg bent sideways at 8,000 feet…
What do you do?
…with no phone. There’s nobody coming there. There’s nobody checking those trails because I’m not on a trail.
So, I’m like, “I’m going to scoot down on my butt.” I try to scoot but my leg is just bone on bone, I can’t get down that way. So, I’m trying to crawl down on my stomach. That pain just sends- I never went into shock, it was just brutal pain, it never went numb.
It’s starting to get late in the day and I have figured I’m going to have to spend the night, so I have to start digging a snow cave.
Sounds like a movie.
Yeah, it is. It’s a survival story. Yeah, it’s crazy. I start building a snow cave to try and survive the night because it gets cloudy and it starts snowing.
But then I was like, “I don’t know how I’m going to do this.” And I see about 150 yards away on a different trail, up around a corner, I see two people skiing by and I wave my poles out.
So, this is hours later?
Yeah. I’m waving them down like a lunatic with my poles, and they ski over and it’s an Italian couple. They don’t speak any English. We’re trying to talk via charades. I’m like, “My leg is broken.”
And the husband or boyfriend skis down to get help and the woman stays with me, and we try to talk, and I’m just nauseous from the pain of my leg. He comes back an hour later with the sled, with the ski patrol, and they have to bring me down 8,000 feet backcountry down to a hospital.
And then I had to have to fly back to the United States with a shattered limb for surgery.
I’m sure you get posttraumatic stress just talking about that man. Freezing cold.
Yeah, it’s crazy. And I did actually write a book about that, because I wrote a memoir about that and it’s actually out at publishers right now, it’s at six major publishers right now.
So, it actually might become a movie.
It may one day, fingers crossed. Fingers crossed.
But in my tone, it’s written in a self-deprecating tone. We switched it from a memoir to a novel so that I could embellish if I wanted to. So, now it’s the novel loosely based on me, a young adult novel.
So, is this something you wrote just during the pandemic or you just always wanted to do?
No, I started writing it about 9 years ago after moving to LA from New York and I was trying to get acting jobs and I was bartending. I had two different pilots that I wrote, both of which got the ideas stolen after they won awards at film festivals and made it to different things.
And I just got really burnt out and I was like, “I need to write something for me that no one can steal because it is my story and my idea.” So, I just started writing it.
And I was going to write this story for SKI Magazine, like a little short. And then I was like, I think, 100 pages in, I’m like, “I haven’t even haven’t broken my leg yet, I think I’m writing a novel.”
So, it turned out to be a book. And then I sent it to a liter agent and they loved it. And then we’ve been tinkering it and working on it. I’d put it down for a couple years and pick it back up, and then now 9 years later, it’s just going out and hoping to-
Good for you.
Yeah. So, I stuck with it.
I wanted to do something for me that didn’t have a lot of people giving me notes on it.
Yeah. It’s your story. I love it.
That’s hard to do, to write a book, man, or memoir. It takes a lot of dedication and commitment because you just get stuck and it’s like, “Where do I go from here?” And you’re like, “I’ll get to it later,” and later and never comes.
And it was a dream, I’d always wanted to write a book, and then I wrote another one after. I love writing, it makes me happy.
Well, it’s interesting with the skiing story because I belong to a group called YPO, it’s called Young Presidents’ Organization. And they do really cool events and stuff.
She has a very similar skiing story as you. She was going to be an Olympic skier. And I think her brother even went on to do that, but that changed her whole life.
As did this, because after that, I had to get a metal plate put in my leg. They had to take my hip bone out of my hip, put it into my knee. And I was a very active guy, like I said, basketball and baseball.
And then yeah, the doctor’s like, “You’re probably never going to run again. You’re going to walk with a limp for the rest of your life. You’re never going to ski again.”
All the things you don’t want to hear at a young age.
That crushed me. Yeah, when you’re 22 years old. And I was like, “I love playing pickup basketball. I thought I would play that like my dad did till he was in his 40s or 50s.”
It’s cool that you’re able to tell your story. I look forward to reading it.
So, let’s go back a little bit. So, now, you’re in Boston and you’re living there. You probably have no family or anybody or anything, you’re just there on your own or what?
My parents are in Connecticut, like an hour and a half away, but my sister was living in Watertown, Mass, at the time. I could see her and we’d have Sunday night dinners with she and her husband and stuff.
And then I lived with five guys I went to college with, they lived in Brighton, Mass.
I’d love to go to your party house on a Friday night.
It was a good time. It was a good time back then. Yes.
And so, you had this comedy that you grew up, dating back to elementary school and middle school and getting your diploma with a fake hand.
So, what happened? So, you found improv or what?
Yeah. Well, it was interesting having- I just feel where I grew up, I didn’t know anyone who was an actor or a comedian, I wasn’t around that. So, I loved watching some Saturday Night Live and that was just my dream, but I had no idea of how did people even get there?
And then I’m living in Boston and I was working construction, getting up at 4 in the morning, working construction.
And for Christmas one year, it was after I had broken my leg, so I was at work in construction. I had this beat up leg and everything. And my sister, for a Christmas present bought me Improv Asylum, which is one of the biggest clubs in Boston, improv class, eight classes, Level 1 Improv as a Christmas present.
So, I went and started going once a week to take these Improv Level 1 lessons, and I just fell in love with doing improv. So, I did level one. Then I took level two. And my teacher in level two was this guy, Ryan Gaul, who was now in the Groundlings, and is now on Tracy Morgan‘s show, The Last O.G.
Oh, is that right?
He plays the husband. He was moving to LA and was like, “Hey, you guys should give this guy a shot. He’s naturally just stupid,” or whatever you want to say.
So, I audition and then I found out I made their Main Stage. I went from working construction, to all of a sudden I was- They did six to eight shows a week, kind of like a Broadway show schedule. You chose every Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, two shows on Friday night, two shows on Saturday and rehearsals. And all of a sudden, I was like, “I guess I’m doing this.”
It wasn’t paying enough money still, to have a day job. I got a job doing- I switched from construction to doing real estate because I started off doing construction. I’d work in a full day laboring, and then I was doing class at 6 p.m., getting home at 9 or 10, and then I was getting up at 3:30 in the morning. I was like, “This is-”
Rough life. Well, first it’s very- First of all, to make, because I’ve done some improv myself. And to make the Main Stage, you’ve got to be pretty good at that.
I found improv by accident. I was a radio personality for a little bit. In our past life, everybody had all these random jobs, construction, and bartending, but I was a radio personality and I was doing DJing like wedding weddings and whatnot.
And a friend of mine’s like, “Hey, I’m going into this thing,” this was in Vegas, “I’m going into this thing, it’s called Second City. And I’m like, “What’s that?” He explained, he’s like, “You ever watch Saturday Night Live?” I’m like, “Of course, I love Saturday Night Live.” He’s like, “It’s like that. You just go and we learn techniques and tools, and it’s a good group. You should come join.”
And so, I went, I fell in love with it too. In fact, I actually wrote an article, I’m not sure if it’s on Inc. or Entrepreneur.com, because I write for some of the magazines. And the article, the whole concept of the article was how improv, just taking-
I wasn’t on the Main Stage or anything like that, but I just took a lot of cool classes and the games, but how that has helped me throughout life in general.
Oh, it’s crazy.
From being a good CEO, to this, a father, or parent, everything.
Well, at Improv Asylum and at ImprovBoston, where I went and I was on their Main Stage as well, and there were two competing theaters in Boston and I got to be on both main stages, which is really exciting, but both of them have their touring companies, and they do so much corporate stuff because they’ll go to corporations and you’ll come in and you’ll work with your team of salespeople and all that.
And just get people to learn how to think quicker on their feet, because it helps in sales and business and so many avenues. So, a huge part of their business is training corporate stuff.
Is that right? I could see that. In fact, I want to go train my team now as I think about this, on how to do improv.
It’s a great tool.
And like, “Hey guys, we’ve got a little weird thing that’s going to happen here now. But hey, it’s fun, and it allows you to-”
Because the biggest thing with improv with me is having trust in your partner that you’re on stage with, because they’re going to either carry you or let you die.
Or bury you. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You need to be able to work together, be on the same page.
And It’s like, “I’m going to take you in a weird direction right now and let’s just see where this goes.”
Exactly. And you’re like, “If I trust you, I’m going with you. We’re going down together here.” So, it’s a lot of trust. It’s all about trust.
Well, that’s cool. Well, anyway, since I don’t know you that well, I figure the best way to get to know each other a little bit better is we’re going to do a little icebreaker.
And Whitney whom you know, you’ve worked together with our producer, Whitney.
Yes, I have.
So, this game is called “Never Have I Ever,” and I’m sure you’ve heard that.
I have. I have.
I bet you weren’t expecting to play it as you walked in today.
Oh no, but I’m excited about it.
So, here’s how this works. We both have 10 cards in front of us and we’re going to take turns, reading the statements, and you get one point if you can answer the question honestly. Now, honestly is really- it’s an integrity thing here.
If you get seven honest answers first, you’re going to be the winner. If I get seven first, I’m the winner. So, since you’re my guest, I’ll let you flip over the first card and we’ll get started.
All right. So, do I read it first and say-
Go for it.
Okay, “Done donuts with my car.” It’s so funny.
Yeah, yeah, In my mom’s station wagon, I definitely did donuts. I was just trying to remember, I’m like, “I know he took that thing off road once too,” but I definitely did donuts in that car. Yes.
All right. “Told my parents the pot belongs to a friend.”
So, for me, to be honest with you, I experimented with pot one time and it just made me feel really crazy, and I’m like, “I’m never doing this again.”
And so, I was definitely not the pothead kid of my friends. So, you weren’t going to find a lot of bags of pot in my room. So, that wasn’t me. So, no, I’ve never had to tell my parents that the pot belonged to a friend.
“Been stuck in a friend zone or friend zoned someone.” Oh, almost every relationship until I met my wife was- I was friend zoned. I’ve always been the “nice guy.”
You’re the funny guy, right? Oh, he’s funny.
Girls would like me, I was fun, but I never had that. And it hurt me with sales, I was never a closer and that worked with women as well. Most of my relationships from high school and mostly college were friend zones, until they started getting more serious later in college.
Everybody loves that friend. Everybody loves that friend.
“Been broken up with for being immature.” “Been broken up with for being too immature.”
I can see maybe in like high school. I’m not sure that was the excuse that they gave me, but to the kid that’s stealing toothbrushes from their friends’ families and stuff, I can imagine that I was broken up for because I was being a little too mature. So, I’ll probably go with the yes on that one.
All right. “Had toilet water splash on my face while plunging”? [laughs] No. That’s so funny that-
Yeah, yeah, I got- I hate that I’m just saying yes on all these, but we’re supposed to be honest. Yeah. Because my parents have this place in Maine and it is not a very good plumbing and every time you use it, you gotta plunge, and it’s not a good quality plunger either. So, yeah, it’s a splasher
You know what’s the worst, is when you’re standing in line to use a bathroom and there’s nobody, or you’re in a party at a house and it’s like college days, and you go in and all of a sudden, the toilet backs up. And you’re like, “Oh my God, what do I do now?”
And it doesn’t make a difference if you clogged it or someone else did, if you’re in the bathroom at the time, everyone thinks it was your work. So, there’s no good situation there.
You know what else, too? When you go into a bathroom and there’s pee on the seat, even though you didn’t do it, if there’s a line, the person behind you is going to think that that’s your work there.
They think it’s you. It’s always: The last person there is the culprit.
Exactly. So, I always try to clean up a little bit here.
“Thought about what to name my future children.” Oh, well, I have three children. The first one was easy, he was just going to have the name Jason. That was just my thing.
But the second one, his name’s Zach now, but he was “Baby Boy” for 4 days or 3 days, however long.
Because you hadn’t made the decision yet?
Because my wife and I could not agree, we’re just like-
That happens a lot.
I’m like, “What about Giuseppi?” And she’s like, “Giuseppi? What is that? What about this? What about that?” And then eventually, my wife’s like, “You know what, what about Zach? Zach from Saved By The Bell?” And I’m like, “I kind of like Zach.”
And so, that was the one that we agreed upon. That’s a scary decision when two parents have to name their kid.
It’s huge because you want to be- As a parent, you’re always like, “Well, we want it to be different or creative.” But you don’t want to embarrass them or make it weird or complicated. And you’re like, “They’re the ones who are living with this name, so there’s a fine line there.”
Yes, yes. Yeah. The best.
It’s the best.
“Used deodorant instead of bathing”? Oh yeah.
You mentioned you have kids, I have kids too. They’re so many times when you’re like, “Life is crazy,” my wife and I’d be like, “I haven’t showered in like 3 days.” And you’re like, “No.” But we go through quite a bit of deodorant in our house.
Is it the spray or the roll on? What are you using there?
You know what’s funny. It worked better when I used the regular and then someone sent my wife or myself an article about the silver stuff and the antiperspirants could be cancer-causing.
It’s funny, out of all those things, it’s the one thing I did switch to natural deodorant compared to all of the other things that- You see a documentary about hot dogs, you’re still gonna eat a hot dog. But that’s one of those things that- I’ve gone natural on the deodorant.
“Brought something on a flight that I knew might get me arrested”?
So, the only time that I ever was a little scared about flying- We’re going to have a guest on the show here in the future, his name is Vegas Dave, and Vegas Dave is a big sports gambler, and he’s like a sports savant.
And at the beginning of a football season, he’s like, “Hey, why don’t you try this gambling with me?” So, I took $10,000 that I didn’t have, and I’m like, “Okay, let’s do this.” And so, I turned $10,000 into like $300,000 from the beginning of the season to the end of the season, in cash.
And so, I’d have my own safe deposit box at a place called The Suncoast Casino in Vegas, and I felt like a mobster. I’m like 23 years old with like $300,000 sitting in a safe deposit box at a casino.
The story about getting arrested or being scared to fly is, I was flying home because I- My mom was a hard worker, she had me at 17, we were poor. So, I made a promise that I was going to buy her a Corvette.
And so, I took $50,000 out of the safe deposit and I flew home with $50,000 in cash. And that just doesn’t seem wrong and all.
Was that in your carry on?
It wasn’t my carry on, it was stuffed in like- $10,000 in pockets, literally. I’m like, “I don’t know what to do.”
So, I’m walking through, and luckily, it didn’t trigger any alarms or anything, but I knew that if they’re like, “Hey, can we just check you, pat you down,” that I was going to be questioned for being some kind of a drug lord or something.
So, anyway, I flew back home, I ended up buying my mom the car, and it was great. But I was scared because even though I wasn’t doing anything illegal, they were going to think I was going to do-
That feels illegal though.
Yeah, it is.
I know, even though it’s not.
“Had a penis drawn on my forehead while I was sleeping.”
[laughs] I could say I’ve done that to friends.
I know. I was going to say I’ve done that in college, but I was never the first to pass out. I’ve always been a light sleeper, even really drunk. Even now, a squirrel farts in the backyard and I’m up. So, no, that has never happened to me.
That you know of.
That I know of.
That you know of. There might be some-
I have a lot of friends from college that used to happen.
The good thing, there wasn’t Instagram when we were kids.
Yeah, right, exactly.
That is true.
We might have been pretty famous in our day.
“Chose not to invest in something that would have made me a fortune.” I think the only thing that I did not get into was buying Facebook shares when it first came out because they did go up a lot.
And my uncle was like, “Hey, you should buy them.” I’m like, “I don’t know, how do they make money? And this, it’s just like a free platform.”
Or Bitcoin. Bitcoin. We could probably do a whole topic on that. Somebody had mentioned Bitcoin to me for long time ago and I’m like, “What? What is this? It’s like this fake currency, what? NFTs now?”
All of this stuff.
It didn’t sound good on paper.
I don’t know what it is, so how am I going to invest in it? So, I’d say Bitcoin, it would definitely be the one for that.
There you go.
“Left the restaurant without paying the tab.” No, I’ve never done that. I waited tables and I bartended for years. So, if anything, even if it was the worst service, I would just overtip. Oh, I would never, even if I had no money, but I never did that, left a restaurant without paying the tab.
“Been thrown out of a bar.” Yes, but because of my stupid friends, not because of anything I’ve done.
I’ve had some crazy friends and you always had that one friend that want to like, pick fights with people next thing you know, you’re getting into this hole.
Yeah. We had to hide a few of those guys.
“Been stunned by something that was left for me in a will.” No, I was just thinking of a complete lie, I really don’t.
I was going to be like, “Yeah. This haunted mansion up in the middle of nowhere.” No, I wish. I think I got my grandfather’s pocket knife. I haven’t gotten much in a will just yet.
All right. Well, I think that’s seven, but let’s just continue. So, you’re officially the winner of our game here and it always usually works that way. I seem to lose all of these games.
“Hired a personal trainer because they were hot.” No, I don’t think I’ve ever done that. Most of my personal trainers were big buff dudes that I aspired to look like at some point in my life.
Oh, “Seen a ghost.” I love ghost stories. I believe in ghosts, but no. Well- No.
Everyone has those things where you’ve had some weird stuff happen, staying in an old place, but I’ve heard things.
I love ghost stories, but I hate it when they’re about me because I remember me seeing them, I’m like, “Ugh,” it freaks me out. It gives me the chills, but I have not seen an actual ghost.
I’ve heard footsteps in a room I’ve been in and heard voices. And that’s been super creepy where I’ve been up all night, I couldn’t go back to bed.
So, for me, my ghost story, I truly believe in ghosts and I’m very skeptical about everything. I have to see, or I just don’t believe a lot of things, but I’ll never forget the story.
So, I’m like 12 years old. I’m upstairs in my friend Hans’ house. He’s got this house. And the parents and everybody always said that, “Yeah. Oh yeah, we’ve got ghosts in this house.” It’s like, normal. We were always like, “Yeah, you’re full of shit.”
Usually when houses are old, like 1800s, there’s a chance. They have stories that they found like a diamond ring in the backyard and while they’re gardening and they put it in the actual kitchen table and it was gone, things like that. They had all these stories and so nobody ever believed them.
And so, one night, I’ll never forget this. It was afternoon, I’m laying down in his bedroom, on the floor, he’s laying down on the bed and we’re doing homework together.
And all of a sudden I hear, “Ka-choo, ka-choo, ka-choo.” And I’m like, “What the heck is that?” “Ka-choo, ka-choo, ka-choo.”
And then I look over and I swear on my grandmother’s life, and my grandma was like a mother figure to me, he had this like, George Washington piggy bank. And it was just literally shaking in the air. I’ve seen it with my own eyes, it’s just shaking in the air.
And I go to my buddy Hans, I’m like, “What the heck is going on right now?” And he’s like, “I told you, dude, this house we’ve got ghosts.” And I’m just like, “Oh my God.”
And so, ever since that day, nothing has ever happened like that to me ever before, but that was the only time that I ever experienced anything like that. It was crazy.
“Use my phone to call someone while taking a shit.”
[laughs] Don’t we all do that?
I think so. That’s one of the perks about having phones. Make a call anywhere you need to.
Just don’t FaceTime.
Exactly. Just don’t flush.
Or flush. You got to make sure.
I want to talk about something, a book that you wrote called Cluster F*ck.
Got it. First of all, what does that even mean?
The little backstory is after I broke my leg skiing in Switzerland when I was 22, I had to be in bed for a month because I couldn’t move my leg. And at the time, nowadays you have surgery, they have you bend your leg, the next day you’re in PT.
20 years ago, they’re like, “Just leave it up and let it atrophy for a month. Don’t move it.” So, I was in bed for about 2 weeks after surgery, woke up in the middle of the night with the worst headache I ever had in my life. And I had never even had a headache.
So, it’s a new thing?
My whole life, I’d never had a headache, and all of a sudden, 2 weeks after this major surgery, it felt like there was an ice pick going into my eye. I thought I had a brain tumor, I was dying.
And then it took years, these headaches- Then I would get 5 or 6 a day for 2 months and then they’d go away and I’d go a year, no headache. Then one year later-
Were you thinking it might have been traumatic brain injury from your accident?
Yeah. I didn’t know. So, I saw a neurologist, I had to go to the ER, I missed Christmas one year because it was so bad, I had to get rushed to the ER for these headaches. And it turns out I was diagnosed with cluster headaches, which are considered the most painful condition known to mankind, cluster headaches.
And they are these ice pick headaches that feel like they’re going into your eye socket and they’re violent. Sometimes with migraines and other headaches, things that can help you, might be being in a dark room, quiet, relaxing.
You’re not sensitive to light with a cluster headache, you’re just thrashing on the ground, holding your head and feeling like you’re going to die. And you can’t even sit still. You’re rolling in a ball on the floor, and they’re also called suicide headaches.
I’ve had them now for almost 20 years and I’ve tried every type of medication and they would put me on Verapamil, which is a blood pressure medication even though I have good blood pressure to hope lessen the severity of these headaches. And that only made it hard to breathe, it would feel like I’m breathing through a straw.
So, I had done a bunch of research and I had been suffering for now at one point for like 16 years with these headaches. And they would destroy my life.
Doing improv, all of a sudden, I have a 3 month window where I’m getting 6 of these headaches a day for 3 months straight. I can’t do improv at night, I can’t perform. It’s affecting my acting career, writing career.
Sure. I think I’ve never even heard of cluster headaches.
They’re very rare. They affect under 1% of the entire population, it’s predominantly men, and it usually comes around age 22. That’s changed since then. I know a lot of women who suffer from them too.
But the crazy thing is I would be on these meds and they would make me feel awful. And the Verapamil, the blood pressure and then I’m doing these injections, they’re sumatriptan injections, which feel like morphine pens, which you’re like jabbing your leg and you’re passing out.
And then you have this hangover from the meds because these headaches will last like an hour and a half, and the only other thing that helps is inhaling pure oxygen. So, I have an oxygen tank at the house.
Long story short, my wife’s friend read an article that a possible cure for cluster headaches is magic mushrooms, psilocybin for magic mushrooms or LSD.
And are they legal?
No, neither, illegal. Schedule I narcotic.
Sure. I thought maybe a doctor could prescribe them for this or something.
No, they can’t. They can’t. So, that’s why I decided to write this book about this guy.
Again, I turned it more into, it was originally a memoir then I turned it into a novel about a character like myself who’s got the most painful condition known to mankind, yet there’s no real cure for it and no real medicine that works aside from Schedule I narcotics.
So, you’re like, suicide headaches or do I-
Possibly going to jail for a little bit.
Go to jail for going to get LSD and mushrooms and trying to get a lot of it.
So, it is an actual cluster fuck of trying because it’s also once you get older, you don’t have as many friends that are going to Phish shows that can get you a bag of mushrooms. It’s like harder to be like, “Where do I get mushrooms? Where do I get LSD?”
What you just done to those that are listening that love those kind of drugs, you just gave everybody a cluster headache here, is what you’ve done. [laughs]
I love it. See.
So, it’s funny, being a guy who never really did drugs, I always like beer and stuff, but I smoked pot a couple of times in my life, but I was never a big drug guy and I’d never done mushrooms, never done LSD until I was like 40 years old.
With a family now.
I tried mushrooms, I’m tripping with a baby and another one and I’m tripping for the first time.
What’s dad doing?
They’re like, “All right, dad’s going to dose today.”
So, I would go in our office and my wife would have the two girls, I remember it was before Easter and they’re making Easter eggs in the kitchen and I’m tripping on LSD.
Now, you would only do it when you had the headaches or?
No, no. There’s a whole thing where people have been like, “Oh, if you just eat a handful,” but the thing is, it doesn’t work that way, you have to do it.
There’s like an actual scientific way. There’s real science behind it.
Is that right?
So, I had to get a gram scale and I measure out and I have very organized, because I went to a headache conference in Austin, Texas where these world renowned neurologists and people were talking all about psilocybin and the benefits.
Is that right?
It’s helping people with depression and it’s getting legalized right now in certain states.
So, these experts, they knew the answer.
They knew. But the problem with psilocybin is in the ’60s they were studying at Harvard and then it like turned into like LSD orgy parties and stuff with students and it was like, “Okay, we’re stopping all research on this stuff.” Which sucks because there’s a lot of good they can do.
But now, after 20 some or 30 years, they’re starting to do a lot of research again. They’re finding so much good that comes out of psilocybin.
So, the way I treat it is, if I have- all of a sudden I have a headache, I can’t just go eat a bunch of mushrooms, it’s when they go into their remission period, that’s when I start taking mushrooms.
So, it’s like every three months I need to eat mushrooms, a small dose. I don’t have to go-
Crazy with it.
Go to banana town junction here, I can just do a small amount where I feel like I’ve had like, six glasses of wine or something and colors get pretty vibrant, but I will, every 3 months just eat mushrooms as a deterrent. It’s like almost taking a multivitamin. It keeps the headaches at bay.
So, having gotten them every year for what? It was like every year for 17 years, all of a sudden I started doing these mushrooms. I went 3 and a half years without a headache for the first time in 17 years. And I was like, “Okay, there’s some real stuff going.”
And that’s life changing for you, right?
Yeah, and I hate it. I’ll be honest. That’s why I want more people to do more science to get the psilocybin, so I don’t have to trip when I have my kids in the other room and I’m hiding, watching old movies.
Or if you can just extract what is in that, that helps.
A way to do that. So, it’s been a couple years since you’ve had one of the cluster headaches or what?
So, it’s working?
It is still working. I still have to do it. There are worse things. I was on a cocktail of awful meds, I was taking prednisone for years and these injections and it was making me feel awful, to taking something that’s natural and actually it’s a good time.
And I get a free day and I can watch like superhero movies because my wife likes period, peace movies. And I like superhero movies. So, those are the times I get to watch all my movies.
And write Led Zeppelin songs.
Exactly. I got to start writing music. I’m not a singer, but it’s a good tip. I’m going to start doing that.
So, the book, Cluster F*ck, is it out or not yet?
No, not out yet. I wrote it. That is actually being rewritten right now and then they’re bringing it back out because I had done a change on it and thought it would be cool to bring the character down to a young adult thing and I think it was, all of a sudden, the epiphany that, “Oh, we’re selling a pro-drug book for kids. Maybe we should skew it a little older.”
But it was also, I wrote it a few years ago, the beginning of it, I’m still working on it now, but now things have changed and people have really found all of the benefits of psilocybin, and so, I’m in the process of rewriting it right now and then we’re going to take it out to publishers.
Well, the thing about it is there’s probably people that get these headaches that have never heard of this “cluster” term and they just think that they get migraines.
And a lot of people get these headaches and the pain is so intense and it disrupts your life so much that a lot of people will take their own lives because there is no real medicine.
So, if you could do something, it’s like, there is something there that is not bad for you and will work.
Well, I can see it being very popular because that’s something that the press probably wants to talk about. You got migraines, maybe it’s not a migraine, maybe it’s a cluster headache.
Here’s a great book and I can see you going on a whole book tour.
Exactly. And having those things, that’s why I wanted to write a book showing it, but also wanted to write a humorous way of this guy trying to get these mushrooms, obviously gets arrested in the book at one point and he’s dealing with these.
And I made it where the headaches, instead of just describing these awful headaches every time he gets one, I made the headaches into a character that tortures him. It feels like you’re being tortured by like a sinister beast. So, I was like, “Let’s make that a character that they talk to,” the guy beats them up. So, it’s a little fight clubby.
So, now is there like a group? Is there people that you know that also get these cluster headaches?
There’s this organization called Clusterbusters which I found through that same friend who had sent that article to my wife and they did that- the Headache Conference in Austin, Texas.
And it’s like a wealth of resources because the problem is even neurologists, there’s so many doctors that just don’t know anything about cluster headaches, because it’s a rare neurological disease that they don’t know a ton about, so they don’t put a lot of money and effort into it.
There’s a lot of money and research towards migraines and meds for migraines, but not for cluster headaches, ‘cause not as many people suffer from them.
So, Clusterbusters just helped raise a lot of awareness and help people get the resources of finding out how, I have an oxygen tank in our closet. When I have them, I huff pure oxygen.
Is that right?
Yeah. Which freaks me out with the kids because I’m always like, “Don’t knock that over. Is that going to turn into a missile and shoot through the roof.”
And I’m always worried my wife is going to light a scented candle or incense in the house, I’m like, “We have a huge four foot tall oxygen tank in there.” There’s no more incense in the bedroom.
So, you mentioned your wife, your kids. How long have you been married?
I’ve been married since, what is it? 2013. So, I think we have our eighth year coming up.
Is that right?
Seventh year. I’m awful with this.
It’s okay, she’s not here and she probably won’t even listen to this.
Right, that’s true.
My wife never listens to any of my stuff.
There you go. You’re right. I got that going for me.
And so, you have children?
Yeah. I’ve got two girls. They’re 3 and 6 right now.
My wife, she’s an actress and we met at a film festival in New York years ago. We met in the press line. We both had pilots in this independent film festival that we both won awards.
We met in the press line and we were both in other relationships, and I just met her as a friend and she was like a writer, creator. And I just remember, she’s really cool.
And then I was single and she was single and I had always had this secret crush on her for years after meeting her.
You were in the friendzone?
Yeah, exactly. She lived in LA, I was in New York, but we were friends on Facebook, but it was one of those crushes that I wouldn’t go on her Facebook page because I would see her pictures and be like, “That’s the person I want to be with.”
She’s got freckles and beachy hair and I’ve always had a thing for freckles. And then just-
Got the courage.
Yeah. It was funny, I’ve been out in LA and I was on the phone with my sister and I was like, single and I was doing improv and I was doing UCB, and my sister’s like, “Are you going to start dating?” I’m like, “No, I had gotten out of a long relationship. All I’m doing is focusing on my career. That’s it.”
She’s like, “Nobody?” I’m like, “Well, obviously that girl Regina I met like 5 years ago, I would date her or marry her in a heartbeat.” And she’s like, “Why don’t you call her?” I’m like, “She lives with her boyfriend.”
She’s like, “Call her, she’s a writer. See if she wants to get a cup of coffee and talk. You’re new to LA and talk about writing.”
So, your sister helped.
Yeah. So, I called her or emailed her and she was like, “I’d love to meet up, I’m just not in a good place. My boyfriend and I of 8 years recently broke up.” And I was like, “Yes, yes.”
We had like a 3-hour coffee in Venice Beach. And then we tried to slow things down, but that train was moving fast, she was just-
Now, you got a beautiful family with her.
Yeah. I’ve got a great family, two little girls.
Are your girls jokesters too or what?
The little one really is, the 3-year-old is bananas. She’s hilarious. And yes, always doing jokes.
Same with my daughter, she just turned 5 years old. And so, kids these days watch a lot of YouTube. We don’t give her too much of the screen time, but she watches like, full TV shows that are produced by parents.
It’s like the craziest thing.
I know what you’re saying.
And so, it’s like ninja kids and this, and all these different shows that she watches. And so, I want to say that she gets her jokes, I can’t imagine like this 4-year-old coming up with these concepts.
One day, I’m sitting in my office and she brings me an Oreo cookie and I’m like, “Oh, thank you.” And I’m working, I’m like, “Thanks, honey.” And I get the Oreo cookie and I got to take a bite out of it.
And I knew what was up, there’s something off with this cookie. It looks like an Oreo cookie, but it smells like my toothpaste. And I’m like, “What is going on here?”
So, if any one of my friends would’ve brought me the cookie, I would’ve took it, threw it, get the thing out of here. But for this, I’m like, “Okay, I’m going to go with this now.”
So, I’m like, “Thank you, honey.” And she’s giggling and I’m just like, “This is awesome. I love Oreos. How did you know I was hungry?”
And I took a bite, knowing that I was going to regret the chocolate and the Colgate,” or whatever the heck one she used. And then I bit it and I was like, “Oh my God, this is worse,” completely overdramatic.
And she’s cracking up, but she does this. She’s got like, these like, little jokester personality.
I love it. I love it.
It’s fun to see that.
It definitely is.
You mentioned you called it, UCB? So, what is your UCB?
Upright Citizens Brigade, they’re improv theater in LA and New York.
And it’s funny because I had done Improv Asylum, improvBoston in Boston, then I went to New York and I worked at the Peoples Improv Theater, The PIT. And I’d done classes at UCB.
And then I moved out to LA and I started doing- It’s the one Amy Poehler, she was one of the founders.
She got started there?
She’s one of the founders of that theater.
The thing about UCB is before you can even audition for them, you have to take so many of their levels, and it’s just one of those things that I had taken levels, like 1 through 3 or something in New York.
And I moved to LA and I was like, “I want to take Level 4.” They’re like, “It’s been too long. So, you got to start at level one again.”
So, I just started at level one, two, but I was about to do the next level and then audition for them and I booked a pilot of a TV show. And then I shot for 2 months, and then I never went back.
And so, I never finished my improv. I’m officially retired; few years ago. But I missed it. I loved improv, but I haven’t done any of that.
So, it’s funny, you mentioned Amy Poehler because I think that’s the connection with Whitney, our producer.
So, first of all, before I get there, what’s this woodworking thing? What is that?
You’re right, there’s another thing.
It’s like you’ve got all these different personalities.
I’m a jack of all trades, master of none, whatever you want to call it.
And I would apprentice him and he had this unbelievable workshop and it would be my favorite thing to go and just spend the day with him in the workshop. And I could sweep up all the saw dust, and I learned to chisel and we would whittle and make little guys.
And he had all five fingers still?
Yeah, exactly. His brother-in-law did not, he was a woodworker too, missing a thumb. And I was always fascinated by that because now they have guards on the table saw, that was table saw.
Yes. I just found a love of woodworking. And then after college, my uncle is a contractor. So, I was working on building apartments, buildings and stuff.
So, I always, and assumed when I got into acting, I was always doing some woodworking or carpentry to pay the bills until that interfered with a day because you want your days free as an actor to audition.
So, then I started bartending at night, but then with acting and writing and writing those books, you’re writing sometimes for 9 years for free, they’re passion projects. It’s in your pipeline knowing that someday that will pay you off.
I would write when my daughter’s napping right at night, but while I’m waiting in between acting gigs, I started doing more and more carpentry out in LA and I started building custom furniture, and people would see something I built and then people for word of mouth, “Oh, I want one of those.”
And then I started doing a lot and I had my own company building custom furniture. And then I had a thing where I was working with a partner and we were building decks and we were remodeling houses together. So, I did that for a few years in LA.
Got it. That was like a passion that you were making money with now. Cool.
Yeah, it was passion. Yeah, exactly. And I love building stuff. So, it ended up just really working out, and then I got featured in some magazines. I built this play kitchen and it was in Domino magazine.
So, things just started opening up with more and more with the woodworking and building furniture.
And then a friend of my wife’s called her and was like, “Your husband’s a carpenter, I’m working on this show, Making It, with Amy Poehler and Nick Offerman, and your husband’s really handy and can build and paint and do a lot of things. Will you ever want to be on the show as one of these, we call them Helpers, the Master Helpers who would help the contestants build some of their projects?”
And that’s how I met Whitney, and then Amy and Nick, and it was just such a fun show, people building.
And I feel like they tried really hard on that show to get people to all get along and not have it be one of these like catty reality shows where people are backstabbing each other.
They just wanted to be where people are making things and enjoying the passion of making things. And I think they succeeded. And it’s cool.
That’s cool because first of all, for them thinking about like, casting. How do we find like, a carpenter that has a SAG card?
Exactly. Those things, and now it’s so funny how these worlds, now, all of a sudden, being a SAG thing, I just booked a Lowe’s commercial and I filmed a Lowe’s commercial last week and in the audition, they’re like, “We don’t want actors. We want real professional carpenters.”
And I was like- “What’s your experience? And I was like, “I teach woodworking classes at Allied Woodshop in LA. And I was a master helper on Making It.”
That was never how any of your auditions ever went.
No, no. Exactly. It’s just crazy how things just all of a sudden- And then I shot a woodworking pilot. I’ve shot two pilots for HGTV now.
That time I shot a pilot for HGTV and had something in my teeth. pic.twitter.com/yB4KwjfiY4
— Mark Odlum (@mark_odlum) June 1, 2018
So, it’s crazy how those worlds have collided lately.
What are you doing now? What keeps you busy these days?
Every day it varies. I thought I had retired from acting because in commercials, there was at one point I had been on a veil, which means like 2nd place on 150 different national commercials over a period of time that I did not book.
So, I came in 2nd place 150 times out of hundreds of people, and it was destroying me. Then it got to be this whole weird thing where I was like, “I am incapable of booking a commercial, but I’m always going to come in second place, so I would still get these auditions.”
And I was finally like, “I think I’m done. I’m going to focus my energy more on writing, more on woodworking.” And when I did that, the things like Making It happen, I just shot another TV show for woodworking.
And it’s funny, I made up in my mind, I was retiring from acting because I’m sick of coming in second place and all of the drama of almost booking things. And then I had this audition for the show Insecure and I had retired the day before in my mind.
And I go in, and I did not care at all. And I booked it, and then I auditioned the next week for the show, Adam Ruins Everything. And again, I was like, “I’m done with acting. This is a waste of my time. We have a child. I can’t even be here.” And I didn’t care about the audition and I booked it.
So, it took me like 20 years, that now, I can walk into an audition of not caring. It’s the place you want to be as an actor.
That’s exactly right.
I didn’t realize that you have to do it for 20 years and be ready to retire and give it up. It was when you can finally be in the position to act how you want to in the room, where you’re comfortable in your own skin.
That’s right. That’s what they say, my son’s an actor too, and that’s what they say. You’re not really acting, just go in there and be yourself.
Exactly. Don’t overthink it. It comes across, especially when they’re watching on the camera, it’s so obvious if you’re trying to or you want it so bad.
Like years ago, I auditioned for The Daily Show. I wanted that so bad because I was like, “I’d be perfect as one of the fake news reporters.” And I bombed because I was putting on a persona that I wasn’t myself at all.
It’s one thing I wish I could have gone back years ago, but it’s one of those things.
Well, listen, man, I appreciate you coming down. I enjoyed getting to know you during this past hour, plus.
What we like to do is sometimes maybe go out and do some filming, maybe afterwards. It’d be great to go out, and maybe just in case I ever get a cluster headache, maybe come out and you can give me the remedy for it.
You never know.
We’ll do it together. We’ll do a preemptive dose together.
And we’ll write some music and all kinds of stuff together, man.
There we go, make magic. Yes.
And for those that are looking for custom furniture, first of all, Cluster F*ck is coming out hopefully soon. I’m going to put some pressure on you to do that.
But hopefully first is the book about the ski story, which is the preemptive called, No Whiskey, No Dog. And that is out right now with publishers, waiting hopefully any day to find out who and when and where.
Good. And how can people find you on social media?
Not “Ode-lum,” Odd-lum,” which no one ever gets right. No one ever gets that right. And I’m on Instagram. I can’t remember, I think it’s-
They’ll find you. It’s easy to find you.
It’s like “M Odlum” or something. Mark Odlum Woodwork, I mix them.
I had to go buy my name from some guy that had “JasonHennessey” because I didn’t want to have the confusion.
So, I ended up acquiring my name from somebody on the aftermarket, but they’ll find you.
Well, Mark, thank you so much. I appreciate it. And we’ll have to do this again soon.
You got it. Thank you so much. This was fun.